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Origin of all Continental Pouters


I was reading in an old Pouter issue of the American Pigeon Journal and it stated that all Continental pouter breeds originated from Spanish Pouters, way back when. "Continental" meaning Norwich, Brunners, English, Poms, Germans etc.

True or false?


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10/24/2009, 9:20 am Link to this post Send Email to Gaditano   Send PM to Gaditano
 
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Re: Origin of all Continental Pouters


Hi Alan,

According to Ralph Buch-Brage's files, it is true, and I quote from our personal correspondence:
"How did the Pouters or Croppers come to Europe? It is obvious that the wanderings of domestic animals are closely related to the migrations of men. From Asia to North Africa, then to Spain, in the case of Pouters, and later to the Low Countries with the Spanish Tercios of Charles V, the Emperor, early in the XVI Century, and to Central Europe, ruled by the Spanish born King Fernando de Austria and his sister Maria, wife of Louis II of Hungary (killed in 1528 at the battle of Mohacz against Soliman the Magnificent). Maria, who loved animals, brought pigeons from Spain to Bohemia, as well as many Spanish nobles who had served well her brother Carlos, the Emperor. The result was the installation of the BRUNNER Pouter in the area, known in those days as SPANELOVE, meaning Spaniard. (Dr. Vladislav Sir; "Holubarstvi", Prague, 1886, p.27, and Bruno Durigen, "Die Geflugelzucht..."Berlin, 1886, p. 611: 'The Brunner was called Spanier...inBohemia.")

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The Dookit
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Re: Origin of all Continental Pouters


Interesting.

10/24/2009, 11:43 am Link to this post Send Email to JEnrique   Send PM to JEnrique
 
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Re: Origin of all Continental Pouters


That would explain the fact that all Pouters have an enhanced sex drive and highly developed personality. I've never understood why a Pigeon would have such a temperament just because it has genes that cause it to blow it's chest. But having Spanish Pouters as ancestors would explain it.

I suppose that means the Holly Cropper has the Morrillero as an ancestor.

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10/24/2009, 12:07 pm Link to this post Send Email to Gaditano   Send PM to Gaditano
 
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Re: Origin of all Continental Pouters


I think one of the earliest documented references to pouters calls them "Arrulladoras", which translates as "Cooers": XI Century : ABU ZACARIA (died 1107 a.d), 'Kitab~al~Felahah' (Book of Agriculture) Seville, gives us the name of a pigeon: HADIL, translated into Spanish as ARRULLADORA(cooer), by Father J.Banqueri.

This may have been due to the extended crop providing a resonant chamber, which would likely be conducive to selection of this trait, as the louder and further reaching the voice, the better their ability to draw a mate.

Again, from personal correspondence with señor Buch-Brage:
"XVII Century Holland: "In the XVII Century, in Holland, were common.....the Thief Croppers in the HAgue....In 1676, the UPLOPER...was a long cropper, very much like the Norwich. There were 3 types of croppers: 1) In Amsterdam, of large size, big balloon, and coarse head. 2) Groningen, more of the flying type. And 3) in the HAgue, they were small croppers....of the 'Tail sweeper type'.......The Dutch Balloon Cropper originated from the Thief Croppers, which are still to be found today. (Called TiltDuiven. (J.C. Diehl; "History of the Holle", in "American Pigeon Journal", November 1968, page 63)

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The Dookit
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Re: Origin of all Continental Pouters


Alan, crop size and seductive instint are totally independent of one another. Today we see breeds and lines of pigeons with almost no crop at all and a very high drive and seduction and at the same time we can find pigeons with very developed crops and no drive and no seduction. In fact, when rojas Clementes described the pouters in 1800 he mentioned that the ones with the most sence of seduction where the ones he called gorguera which had a medium size beak and smaller crop than the ones that were known as croppers.


Clementes said:
quote:

“... es más ladrón que ninguno y el único que en Valencia llaman ladrón”. (1800).



this translates basicaly into:

"is more of a thief than all the others and the only pigeon that in Valencia is called a thief"

10/24/2009, 12:45 pm Link to this post Send Email to JEnrique   Send PM to JEnrique
 
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Re: Origin of all Continental Pouters


 emoticon


Last edited by mad manny, 10/24/2009, 1:36 pm
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Re: Origin of all Continental Pouters


Whilst I agree that a larger crop doesn't necessarily equate to a better seductive ability, else surely a Gaditano or a Norwich cropper would merely have to coo and the loft would be covered in enamoured females! emoticon Though I do think that there is a correlation in this respect, as you say, Enrique, there are breeds with comparatively small crops, the Palomo de Clase and the Moroncelo come to mind, considered among Spain's better sporting pigeons, and the Moroncelo's crop is described as being little more than the size of "half an orange". This suggests to me that there is an optimum size, or volume of crop, where the resonance is advantageous. Even with what we consider to be a small crop, these birds still possess more, considerably more, crop development than the rock dove. I've observed rock doves, or as close as they can be, on the Scottish coastline where I used to live, and I notice this in feral pigeons in cities too, that quite often they will settle in a place where there is resonance of sound to call the female. A different adaptation perhaps, but serving the same purpose.

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The Dookit
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Re: Origin of all Continental Pouters


I agree Graham - We have a pet Ring dove who loves to fly into the bathroom when given liberty every morning. He lands on the shower stall and will sing as long as he's allowed to. They know when their voice is being amplified. And the males realize this is a quality females look for.
10/24/2009, 1:30 pm Link to this post Send Email to MarcheneroMike   Send PM to MarcheneroMike
 
Glassfeather Profile
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Re: Origin of all Continental Pouters


Hi Mike,

Lovely little birds the ringneck doves, it must be delightful!

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The Dookit
10/24/2009, 1:42 pm Link to this post Send Email to Glassfeather   Send PM to Glassfeather
 


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