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MarcheneroMike Profile
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Re: Jiennense vs. Gorguero


You have your opinion Enrique and I have mine. And yours is no more educated than mine. I can see no reason breeders of that time could not have developed seperate pouter breeds. Different pigeon breeds were being developed all over Europe at that time , so why not in Spain? Each breed was being developed for different skills and tactics for thieving. The physical attributes coming much later in history when people had time for leisure activities such as pigeon shows.
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Re: Jiennense vs. Gorguero


Darren we all have alot to learn. I spent a few years looking into this Gorguero thing, doing some research, reading every document I could find, got my hands on some so called Gorgueros and bred them, spoke to Antonin a few times over the phone and asked him alot of questions etc. And the only conclusion I have been able to come up with on this subject, is that so far nobody has been able to prove the existence of an ancient breed called Gorguero and that the mayority of people that breed and believe that a breed under such name existed, have the same mind set as a blindly faithful church goer that believes in G_d because he is told by somebody else that G_d exists. I have read on more than one ocation "Gorguero" breeders make comments such as "I believe in the Gorguero" as if they were talking about G_d. G_d gave us brains for a reason, not just to believe blindly what anyone says. So basically what I am saying is that anything is possible, but so far everything points in the direction of a word used in reference to a group of pigeons with hanging crops and lose crop feathers instead of in reference to a breed. Now days you can actually notice a very substantial difference between the so called Gorgueros and Jiennenses because the raza antigua has been refined so much since 1983 when its standard was first writen and the breed accepted by the name Jiennense, that the difference are now undeniable, but if you go back to the pre-1983 years, they were all the same and since they were not a breed, they could be found with many differences depending on the taste of the individual breeders and the area of Spain were pigeons were found. Today these differences have given rise to different breeds such as Laudino, Jiennense, Granadino etc.



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Re: Jiennense vs. Gorguero


Absolutely Mike. You are 100% right, like I said, anything is possible.

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Re: Jiennense vs. Gorguero


Very good conversation you guys and most of all, thank you for being gentlemen emoticon

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Re: Jiennense vs. Gorguero


I wonder if one of the kings/rulers a few hundred years ago had something to do with that. I was reading some where about a king/ruler who "made" everyone raise a certain breed of pigeons because he favored them over the others. I don't want to stir up things with people......
I can relate to something like that, b/c in a lot of countries for example I will use my own people's history......
My people were not allowed to be in existance anymore after a certain emperor took over. We faced genocide, persecution, etc. Our women were "made" into Chinese hence carrying our characteristics. After a few generations of the "standard" we were suppose to become. They stopped. Now, our women who kept the language alive by speaking in secret meetings, etc were never allowed to speak, write, our language No documentation after that. Soon after a few decades, the writings were lost. The language continued. No one has records of this, because there were none to keep. So it becomes hearsay, legend some call it. Now, that we look like the Chinese and took the last names of the Chinese people, we still spoke our own language. If my memory serves me correctly, in the 40's and 50's they built a huge army and drove us out of the country with a million man army. We went south into SouthEast Asia into the Mountains.

THen we ended up here after helping NATO and the free countries in the Vietnam War.

No one will admit to this and it gets swept under the rug, because so many years have passed. No documentation was ever found etc. There shouldn't be any if no one wants to remember.

I can understand from both sides of the Jiennese and Gorguero.

I was just saying the "What if" People had to classify them as a different breed jsut to keep them because of the ruler at the time wouldn't allow them to keep them.?

Now to go back in history, and find facts, we cannot do because there mention hardly any thing.

To go back in time and find out for ourselves.....now that will be really awesome!

And by no means, I am saying that the Chinese were bad people back then and I do not wish to imply that they are, but that is what the elders tell me where we came from .

I feel like a pigeon with no history behind him. We cannot trace our lineage.

We look like Asians now, but what did we look like 200 years ago?

My education here in the U.S. tells me to believe nothing unless it is documented in the history books. But "my" history tells me there's more to tell because not everyone was allowed to document history.

Go figure.
Darren emoticon

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Darren
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MarcheneroMike Profile
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Re: Jiennense vs. Gorguero


Darren -
You are correct, but the time was not 100's of years ago. It was during the Spanish civil war(which ended in 1939). The Spanish government outlawed flying the older pouter breeds in order to protect the Racing Homer. Then in the 50's and 60's the older breeds were again being persecuted, but this time by the followers of the Pica. The Pica breeders sought the help of the government to eliminate the flying of other breeds of pigeons because it interfered with the Suelta. A few faithful followers of the older Spanish pouter breeds quietly kept their pigeons. Many years later, clubs started forming to promote the older pouter breeds such as: Federation Espanola de Columbicultura and La Giralda. But by that time some breeds had already become extinct, the Valenciano being one example.
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Re: Jiennense vs. Gorguero


The history of the Gorguero IS full of speculation. The city of its origin is not even known for sure. Some believe it was developed in Linares, others think it was Madrid. One thing is known; at the same time the Gorguero was being developed other pouter BREEDS were being developed in other parts of Spain, the Colguero and the Olguero. Some early authors thought that these birds were all the same BREED. In fact it was not true, they had evolved from seperate races. The Gorguero evolved from the Paloma de Cata. The Colguero from the Quebrado (a posture pigeon). Each of these BREEDS had distinct characteristics. The Paloma de Casta was known for its unusual blue feathering,ram shaped head and intense theiving abilities. The Quebrado was known for its unique way of flying, its tail was held curved upwards, just the opposite of the Marcheneros. The Colguero and Gorguero were later crossed and each BREED left its mark on the other. This is information from Dr. Cuatrecasa on one of his visits to California in the 90's. I also recieved similar information from Ralph Buch Brage when he was in the U.S. for a speach he gave at The Pageant of Pigeons in San Bernadino.
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Re: Jiennense vs. Gorguero


Please let me say,I feel smarter because I have kept up with this conversation. You guys are a wealth of great info. Awesome....
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darrenyang Profile
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Re: Jiennense vs. Gorguero


Wow, this is amazing stuff. One can appreciate each breed by their history/survival/creations. Tell mr everything ya'll know.

Darren emoticon

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gazzman58 Profile
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Re: Jiennense vs. Gorguero


This is a fantastic topic. It's great to be able to learn about the history of breeds.


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Gary Williams.
Clandestino Lofts, Dimboola, Australia. Working Thief Pouters Down Under
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