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MarcheneroMike Profile
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Jiennense vs. Gorguero


Since we haven't had a good discussion in awhile I thought I would bring up this subject. I was told by a well known pouter breeder in the U.S. that there are no more Gorgueros. He said the Spanish breeders refined them and they are all Jiennense now.
I still see Gorgueros listed on show reports from Florida. So whats up with that?
10/15/2009, 4:10 pm Link to this post Send Email to MarcheneroMike   Send PM to MarcheneroMike
 
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Re: Jiennense vs. Gorguero


My sources tell me there are no more true Gorgueros even in Spain, all Gorgueros are recreations by crossing different breeds together to recreate them.

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MarcheneroMike Profile
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Re: Jiennense vs. Gorguero


I brought this subject up with Frank Barrachinna several years ago after seeing the name Gorguero still being used in literature. I had thought they were no longer using the name Gorguero in Spain. Frank told me I was correct, there were no Gorguero they had been bred into the Jiennense.
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Re: Jiennense vs. Gorguero


Guys the "Gorguero" was never a breed.The word Gorguero comes from Gorguera, which is the dress piece wore during the middle ages mostly by royalty around the neck. As you may have noticed, Spanish pouters of caste, have very lose and long feathers on their crop, this feathers are very different from the feathers on the rest of their body and is very particular to Spanish breeds. Pouters with the hanging crop when viewed from the front and from the side, give the impresion of wearing a gorguera, when viewed from the front the crop feathers extend to the sides and when viewed from the side these feathers acumulate behind the neck to form a hump. In antiquity, pigeons with this characteristic were called by some in some parts of Spain by the name Gorguero or Gorguera, not in reference to a breed, this was simply a physical characteristic of some pigeons. Over time the name stuck around and has come down to our days. The person responsible for the revival of the name Gorguero, Josep Antonin Cuatrecasas, is very knowledgable about pigeons of all breeds, he is a veterinary doctor and a Spanish pouters aficionado. In his younger days he did alot of research and came to the conclusion, I belive erroneously, that the Gorguero actually existed as a breed in past times and decided to rescue it by looking for traits he believed pertained to the "breed"
These pigeons were selected and bred until a desire look was achived, then the standard was written by Antonin, and there you have it.

Now, the idea of the gorguero was actually formulated in a mind with a very vivid imagination and the standard was created based on a desired type of pigeon, not one in actual existence at the time it was written. In fact, two years ago I believe, it was revised and re-written relaxing some of the theories a bit and making less demanding of the breed, I supose because the goals of the original standard were not achived even after many years of trying, for example, in the old standard it was stated that all the feathers on the crop must be green, this is nearly impossible, so after the revision, this part of the standard states that such feathers must be "mostly" green, and there are several other points of this nature. I respect Antonin's knowledge which is on a level and class of its own, I have spoken to him a couple of times on the phone and he can talk about any breed of pigeon, not just pouters, however, I also believe he was wrong about the Gorguero and the animals that were selected are nothing more than a pre-standard (raza antigua) less refined, Jiennense.

This is a picture of a Gorguera.


Image
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Re: Jiennense vs. Gorguero


Well written piece Enrique.You are correct in the fact that the Gorguero was named after a pleated collar worn by Spanish noblemen However in my research the Gorguero was a primitive breed that did exist. Also at the time existed the Olguero and the Colguero. All of these breeds were used in the developement of the Spanish pouter breeds we have today. One of the oldest being the Rafeno. I have not seen the birds that are called Gorguero today however. These birds are more than likely the creation of some breeders looking to bring this breed back as well as the Valenciano. This doesn't make it wrong, just fanciful thinking. "In Spain they play the guitar in there house the way they like"
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Re: Jiennense vs. Gorguero


Well, the name Gorguero, like I said, can be found in old writtings of well known people such as Rojas Clementes, but in reference to a type of pouter, not a breed. To start with, the concept of breeds was non existence with thief pouters breeders at the time, and the use of these pigeons was mainly for hunting other pigeons, they were not used in an organize arena, there were no standards, they were not selected for a certain look, they were bred with what ever pigeons were available, and very little knowledge of genetics and breeds was available to people, chances are they were illiterate, country people and lower class people; so basically, any pigeon that looked a certain way was categorized in a group, but that does not mean it was a breed, there could have been as many differences between these Gorgueros as there were similarities. The name Gorguero was brought back to life by Antoning and even he can't prove with any documentation that the word Gorguero was used in reference to a breed, but only to a type of pigeon, basically, any pigeon that had a hanging crop with abundant feathers on it was a Gorguero. We can find some ancient documents that point to the Gorgueros, but again, this is in reference to a group of pigeons that had something in common, that's all. I could be mistaken about all of this of course, but I believe on what my rational mind tells me and until some concrete prove comes to light, I can only go by what's available, and there is nothing available that says that in ancient times there existed a breed by the name of Gorguero. Not to be redundant; we find the name in old documents, but nowhere do we find proves that it was a breed in the way that we have documentation that proves that the Carrier was a breed of pigeon in existence at the times.



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MarcheneroMike Profile
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Re: Jiennense vs. Gorguero


If there were no breeds why would there be different names? Gorguero, Colguero, Olguero, etc. It just doesn't make sense to call them all Gorguero. If that was the case and the Spanish breeders were as you said,"illiterate, lower class people" than how could those people have developed the fine breeds we have today. There have been references to different breeds of pigeons throughout written history. Why would it be then the Spaniards of that time could not name a breed?
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Re: Jiennense vs. Gorguero


 emoticon emoticon emoticon emoticon emoticon emoticon emoticon emoticon emoticon emoticon
10/21/2009, 6:16 pm Link to this post Send Email to mad manny   Send PM to mad manny
 
JEnrique Profile
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Re: Jiennense vs. Gorguero


Mike all those names refer to the same type of pigeon...

Colguero= something that hangs from the word colgar.

Olguero is just a bad or corrupt pronunciation of Colguero.

See the similarities? Gorguero, Colguero, Olguero? of course, over time, different lines took shape and they became known by different names. Everyone has the right to come up with his own opinion Mike, mine is based on facts, not on what could be could have been, not on what if or it could have been possible if, etc. I belive in the things I do, not based on faith nor possibilities, and many different arguments can be made about basically anything on this world because basically anything is possible, but in reality there is always one truth about everything that exists and unless that truth can be proven, I base my opinion on probabilities and educated conclusions not possibilities. Once again, needless to say I could be wrong, but one is wrong when proven to be so.

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darrenyang Profile
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Re: Jiennense vs. Gorguero


I hope you guys don't mind me saying that this is good stuff. I am learning history. Makes me wanna research to find facts and opinions, stories, etc.

Darren

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Darren
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